Interviewer: Do you have any little kids at home?Candidate: Yes, we do.Interviewer: Nice meeting you. Close the door on the way out.People with young kids are always tired. This is typical:"I often feel worn out before the day even starts. The other day I was nodding off at my desk."When people lived in the forest, they could lay down for a snooze whenever they wanted. Now, with both parents obliged to take baby duty during the night and go to work the next morning, no one who has little kids ever gets enough sleep. And we all know how important sleep is, don't we. Every health article is harping on it all of the time. So, why would you want to hire someone when he's bound to be inefficient? Isn't it enough that you're stuck with the parents you brought in when they were single.Canadian Headhunter, (Expert from the Frozen North)
Canadian Headhunter's blog | more articles in Candidates
This goes along the same lines as employees who miss the point that because they have kids somehow/someway they're entitled to "perks" that are child related:
They "leave early" - "...can't miss that soccer practice..." or offer up their kids' toothaches as excuses why they did not come in to work or spend half their workday arranging batting practice for the upcoming AllStar weekend baseball tournament that's going to cause them to leave on Friday at noon and not return until Tuesday.
Somehow they figure their kids give them some kind of child resistant privilege that anyone would be unreasonable to object to.
Guess what? It's unreasonable to expect your co-workers, boss or AA to pick up the slack you're consistently leaving behind.
Wearing your kids on your chest like a badge of honor doesn't get it. So if you're one to skip those late-afternoon staff meetings or fail to bring in the required paperwork or can't meet the customer on his turf at his times because you choose to be the baseball coach or want to be a soccer mom, get another job - that of the baseball coach or soccer mom. Don't expect others to "understand" and cut you slack time and time again because of your choices. It's a job - it's a privilege - do it.
"Don't expect others to "understand" and cut you slack time and time again because of your choices. It's a job - it's a privilege - do it.
Posted by: Maureen Sharib | August 3, 2005 08:24 AM "
Are you at work right now Ms. Sharib?
Yes I am. I am a Mother of Two.
How do you feel about what I said Father of two?
hey CH
don't go about spreading the nasty truth !
With two daughters (see snaps here) people might stop headhunting me !
ciao,
Gautam
No expert from the rainy south (hemisphere!)
Yes, people can be so damned inconvenient. I can't wait until we finish replacing them all with machines. They never sleep, they don't take vacation (except when they break), they don't mind working in the dark, they never ask for more pay, and they don't make me look at pictures of their kids! Yes, replace them all!
We won't need recruiters, then, either.
If you hate people so much, why did you pick a career that requires working with so many of them?
Hmmm... being a single dad myself, I find that this type of stereotyping would be wildly wrong. You can have slacker workers who will use any excuse to cut out early, they don't need to have kids. It could just as well be a girlfriend, a hobby, or a simple lack of work ethics.
All in all- I worked five times harder having a child because I recognize the absolute requirement that having a job means. I have a son to support and I am it. Everything at work has to be done right the first time, everytime. Otherwise I'm wasting my time at work and that ultimately means I am wasting time with my son. Having children also reduces chances that you'll have a job hopper, as parents realize the significance of a steady foundation and income.
For me at least, a child represents inspiration to do something better. If you are going to hire employees you need to understand that no amount of education or experience really matters in the long run, it's all about the personal motivation and inspiration an employee brings to the workplace.
CH writes these pieces tongue in cheek folks.
It is an interesting topic, but one that can't be had in most corporate offices.
Please don't take it personally when tomorrow we complain about single people dating each other and ruining the chain of command at corporations.
Shop talk on a blog isn't exactly the water cooler. The world is watching. And this is the month that Fast Company put "Why We Hate HR" on the cover. CH may be writing with tongue in cheek, but Maureen's comments demonstrate that there is real animosity in the workplace and that this is a real issue.
Some of us would still like to find jobs, recruiter talk about the heating up job market notwithstanding. Reading a recruiter's contempt for candidates reflects poorly on himself, his company, and his clients. I guess that's why he's anonymous here.
CH can defend himself, but if you follow the link, you'll see an post on Monster blog talking about being tired.
Maureen can defend herself also, but she actually is a mother of two, so I doubt she's saying they shouldn't be hired, but rather that the actions of some parents who use their children as a way to shuffle the workload to other people affect all parents - just like the action of woman who use th Family and Medical Leave Act to keep their insurance and then quit three months after they give birth affects the perception of managers left holding the bag. Is it fair to say that women of childbearing age shouldn't be hired? How then do you maintain a proper work/personal life balance for your employees without getting taken advantage of?
That's a perfect conversation for a blog - and that's what this is - a conversation. There is anger at those bend the rules and shift work loads by those left bearing the load. Pretending it doesn't exist or that it somehow shouldn't be talked about isn't our style.
Attempts to monitor and regulate the marketplace are going to run into these problems - and there will be misunderstandings. Sorry you feel that way.
As a mom of a very active, brilliant and gorgeous 2 1/2 year old, I say HIRE every good candidate that is a mom or dad.
We work very hard -- we multitask, we prioritize, we don't take it personally when you start crying or have a tantrum. Truthfully, raising children is HARD WORK! I tell my boss that coming to work is like having a vacation! People at work answer when I ask a question, they mostly do what I ask them to do (without me having to threaten a "timeout"), and they even go to the restroom without me (messy details omitted here-use your imagination!).
So bring on the parents! I know they can handle juggling priorities -- and I agree, with a mouth to feed at home, you're sure to do a good job -- paychecks are wonderful things!
But please! Don't ASK about it -- not legal.
OK, I forgot something. The Interviewer should have asked, "Do you have a nanny?". If the Candidate answers "Yes", the follow up is "Twenty-four hours or just during the day?"
Jim, you're doing all the defending of CH here. I'm not convinced Maureen needs to be defended. She has a complaint based on a specific situation in her office.
The original post was "Don't Hire People Who Have Young Kids... [they] are always tired." FMLA doesn't apply. This is about parents who are coming to the office. The Monster blog post simply made the observation that the beginning of a child's life is rough on the parents. We don't know Thad's (the poster's) job, and we don't know that he's not getting it done. We just know that he'd like to get more sleep.
By the way, kids grow out of that stage fairly quickly. The parent who experienced the one-question interview would remember a lot longer.
As for FMLA, rather than get wound up about the ethics of people who make the difficult choices involved in real life, it might be more productive to think like an economist and assume that employees are rational actors. Given the incentives of the US system that links healthcare availability to employment, what would you expect them to do? Have you priced health insurance in the open market lately?
My last two employers eliminated tens of thousands of jobs in the last 5 years; it was a matter of corporate survival. Even today, when recruiter blogs are starting to talk about the switch back to a candidate's market, companies are laying off by the thousands. Don't be surprised when employees consider their own incentives from time to time.
The post is not serious. It's that simple.
FMLA was not intended to provide medical benefits to people leaving the workplace - it was intended to allow mothers to keep their jobs and return to the workplace.
When they use the FMLA, they cause economic damage to the companies, who respond by cutting benefits or laying off employees. The companies are then sued, and the money paid in settlement to lawyers is not paid in raises, bonuses, and benefits to employees who stay at the company.
There are tradeoffs - much like the tradeoff of having children-friendly policies pays off in economic benefits for the society as the whole starting approximately 22 years later.
The appropriate discussion in economic terms is whether employees with children as a class can be identified as more or less productive than employees without children.
No one is going to take that
As said early - this is tongue-in-cheek - he could have said don't hire drinkers or smokers or people with sleep apnea or the obese and had a good topical discussion - but parents of young children were the post on the monster blog.
Just to add fuel to this fire - I read somewhere where smokers are 20% less productive in the workplace - seems like a
good reason to avoid hiring them to me...
;)
My understanding is that people from Missouri are the biggest slackers - wasting over 3 and a half hours a day.
Don't hire them Missourians!
(personally I believe Missourians are just honest about their jobs).
Good parents are better in general at time management, conflict resolution, communicating with children (like coworkers who complain about other people not carrying their fair share gosh darn it!), and being empathetic to other points of view than people whose only child is their own ego. And since in the US my children will be paying your social security bills, I propose we require all employees to have children. I'm going home to start having more right now. I just hope my coworkers will pick up the slack.
Well said, Jeff!!! We might be tired, but we ARE productive and can deal with "childish" co-workers!
I was recently in my sixth interview on a new role and everything seemed to be going well until the managing director asked why I'd relocated recently. I answered honestly that I was about to become a father and that I'd decided to be closer to my family. After that, the interview changed in tone - and ended quite quickly. A few days later I was told 'you're not a great fit' for their organization.
Well, this one will certainly hit the best of Recruiting.com! It seems that tongue-in-cheek oftens creates the greatest swirl of activity.
If you took this too personally, you probably don't understand CanHead's humor. However, I do love the way he's layed out on this one and just let it roll.
Signed,
Father of Five, and top of the food-chain in terms of productivity. Yes, you should hire me.
If you weed out all the people that have something about them that you don't like you will most likely not have anyone to hire.
What you need to do is cast a wide net. Over the past 10 years I have recruited, hired, and trained over 1000 recruiters. They came from all walks of life. Some you can tell right out of the gate that they were going to be star producers, others we thought might never make it, rose to the occasion and surprised everyone.
Inspect what you expect, give your people the ball and let them run with it. What they do on their off time is none of your business as long as it does not effect their work. If performance is not where it needs to be then communicate with them. Be a leader.
"When people lived in the forest, they could lay down for a snooze whenever they wanted. "
Maybe it's just because I'm Canadian, but I pretty much concluded that the post was serious at that point!
Wasn't serious!
Clearly, being the father of three left me too tired to properly proof-read my posting.
First, some background:
I am married (15 years), and a father of two: 9 and 2 years old
I commute 2 hours each way to get to work, by car. Yes, I drive.
I am Cub Scout Leader and I work out 2x a week in a Tae Kwon Do class with my oldest son.
I am an IT professional in my early 40's
There are a few points I consider incorrect in all of these posts.
I make things work because I make them work. I generally work 7:00-4:00pm, which leaves me enough travel time to make my 7pm obligations at home. That means I leave the house at 5:00am; to some people this is insane, but why?
On the days when client meetings run late, and I can't reschedule them, I put off the work-outs (rarely happens more than once per month); Cub Scouts are a fairly rigid timetable, and my employer understands its importance, so this rarely gets affected. My son isn't on a Little League or Soccer team, but in my mind Saturdays are supposed to be used for these games (or on your own, earned time off).
Sleep, in my mind, is nothing more than a necessary evil. For more than 10 years I have gotten about 5 hours per night, and that includes weekends. Its an adjustment that can be made. On the few occasions where I find myself tired, I nap during lunch.
I realize what I describe makes people raise an eyebrow in disbelief, but its what I do, and it works for me.
The parent of children can be as dependable as those singles who party too long; I know well what I speak of, for I was once single too, and I know plenty of singles in the workplace now who sometimes come in from a very late night.
The attitude that either parents or singles are better/worse employees is generally fueled by ignorance or jealousy. Let the individual employees’ record speak for itself.
This is fun:
Lazy Uneducated Careless Persons
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/mar/88357758.html
found on ERE blog
HA!
You are all amateurs!
I have FIVE...count them FIVE kids!!!
AND a ferret!!!
Does this make me or my husband better workers or better employees?
Not in our case. We were both hard working before we had kids, and we still are.
I have seen a few people become more responsible and "buckle down" when they have kids. Most of the time, though, if some one is a slacker before having kids, they will be a slacker after having kids. And if they were great workers before having kids, they will be after having kids.
What we need are companies that respect the time of ALL its employees, regardless of whether they have kids, fish, dogs or chia pets at home. Really, should it be any more important that I want to take a day off to chaparone my kid's field trip than it is for the single, childless employee want to take time off to go to the beach? No, it isn't. My time is not any more valuable than that employee's. Single people need work balance too.
And that is how it should be.
Everyone is responsible for taking control of their own lives to find a work life balance. Sure, I won't lie: I have more empathy for the mom who is feeling a little tired because she was up late due to a sick kid than I do for a single guy that was out all night partying with his buddies. But the point is this: They both came to work.
I have been guilty in the past of pulling out the mommy card and didn't realize it until another recruiter (who also had kids) called me on it. I was a bit taken aback, and embarrassed by it, actually. Not the fact that I had to take time off, but the fact I was making excuses for it.
As parents, we need to stop asking for special rights. If you accept a job you know will require working nights or weekends now and then, don't whine you never see you kids. Look for another job. Same goes for the childess employee. If you feel you don't fit into the culture of a "family oriented" business (ie, it annoys you that people are allowed to bring kids into the office, or that half the office is allowed to work from home if their kid is sick) then find a different place to work.
K, on that note...I need to find where my kids hid the remote.
Well, I loved this statement, "I worked five times harder having a child . . .." That's dedication. (joking)
As to the topic of slacking, what about those who blog all day, or five out of the 7.5 hours of the work day and still expect to get paid for a full day (blogging is not their full-time job).
Being a parent does provide one with unique skills. Knowing how to work with young people, no matter what the environment, is an art as well as a skill.
Maureen Sharib, you really sound like the big C word that some ladies get called, Im one calling you that
Even though me and my wife don't have Kids, family in general will always be more important than work.
People like you who focus on just making money and companies that focus on just making money are exactly what is wrong with America today.
Im just as happy making $25,000 as I was making $75,000 there are more important things in life money
You Madam are not worth the skin you are printed on, Im saddend that a mother of 2 would say anything like you did.
Mike Welch, I'll follow your example. You sound like your a good example of the D work. I like making fun of people but there is no reason to talk like that here unless, perhaps, it is just the way you talk all the time and you don't realize how it will sound to normal people.
Medical Sales Jobs | Pharmaceutical Sales Jobs | Biotech Sales Jobs
I have managed those without kids and those with kids. Results were inconsistent with "kids or no kids" being the determining factor in poor or not poor performance. The right person manages their personal life as well as their worklife. Now I have to go rewind Barney.....
Sorry Mike, I wrote D work when I meant D WORD. Best Regards, again.
"It's unreasonable to expect your co-workers, boss or AA to pick up the slack you're consistently leaving behind."
I'm not exactly sure what "C" word you're referring to but it sounds pretty nasty/ugly and I'm sure this kind of remark doesn't belong in a discussion like this.
People with bad tempers who can't control their foul mouths have no business posting on business related blogs.
And by the way, in the not-so-far-off-likelihood you took "AA" to mean Alcoholics Anonymous I did not - I meant Administrative Assistant.
Maureen telephone-names sources daily as well as teaches telephone-names sourcing in her online course "The Magic In The Method".
www.techtrak.com
maureen at techtrak.com
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